from
Google Search: soc.genealogy.german
Google Groups: View Thread "German censuses and church records"
Subject: Re: German censuses and church records
Liv Nordset wrote:
> Does anyone know whether there are web-sites for German censuses and/or
> church records?
>
> Liv
>
>
just to make sure that we understand each other:
In Germany with very few exception there have never been published data
taken in a census other than plain figures.
It is true however that the data were acquired household by household.
But the crude data were condensed before publishing.
The base forms,
filled in by the people aided by numerous volunteers (I was one of those
in 1962 and 1969) were destroyed.
The destruction is contained in the
Census Act. The Federal Constitution Court resolved that the
identification part of the census forms (just adress and name) have to
be seperated before the processing of the data.
So today you can't even
tell, who gave false data as to members of the family, income, ownership
of houses, nationality etc. Experts mean that a modern german census has
a +/- 10 p.c tolerance.
Whereas as of about 1920 the crude data was contained in forms, those
data of earlier census' were contained in lists which were bound to
books.
Those books are when available published by interested people
privately at own cost (for example by the AKVZ). This private work is
depending on the authors/publishers also made available in the net (for
example by the AKVZ = googled - Arbeitskreis Volkszahl-Register Schleswig-Holstein e.V.).
The publishing in the net is, however, taking into account the material
on hand, very seldom.
A hardcopy alternative are the so called Ortssippenbücher, which contain
data on families of a certain town as completely as available. These are
also private works, which are mainly available from the author directly.
Wether there are such books you may find out by writing per snail mail
to the local archive.
To answer the second part of your question: with the exception of part
of the LDS microfilms, there are no german church records in the net.
To answer a question which ties in: there are no german official records
of personal data in the net (which is forbidden by law).
Sources of at least adresses are the Adressbücher, which were and are
published for a couple of bigger towns (in hardcopy) and the telephone
dictionaries. The latter are available (for current not previous years)
on the net.
To sum it up: there is no way to do a german genealogical research based
solely on data available via internet and usenet.
mfg
bjk
Google Search: german censuses
I asked Bernd
> >
> > now what about state censuses before 1871?
> >
> > are there similar books on German census as a whole?
>
> I personally only know of the work of the AKVZ pertaining to Schleswig
> Holstein. There are websites which contain relatively young data of the
> "deutsche Ostgebiete".
> But there is definitely no "book" (or the couple of books filling a
> whole library) on any census except for the figures published regularily
> by the Statistisches Bundesamt, formerly Reichsamt.
>
> One reason might be that in Germany starting in quite early times most
> of the data normally acquired in a census were already contained in
> official registers like the Grundbuch (register of land property,
> houses), Meldebuch (register of inhabitants), Wehr(fähigkeits)liste
> (register of recruits).
>
> The reason for a census like in the Holy Bible was the levying of taxes.
> Up to modern times taxes in money were paid by property owners only,
> whereas other people had to provide services to the community (e.g.
> Hand- und Spanndienste). The landowners were known from the register,
> the others were simply ordered by public announcement or by written
> order(some month ago a wartime (1813) example of such order was
> discussed here).
>
> examples of Denmark snipped
>
> >
> > so I would expect similar work to have been done in Prussia etc
>
> there were register of recruits, but they did not survive with very few
> exceptions you may find in a archive not on the net but in hardcopy.
>
> there is a register of land property, which shows ownership of any plot
> for at least 300 years back, but the register is sorted by plot, not by
> owner, so if you wish to find a person you may even for smaller villages
> have to dig through hundreds of files not on the net but in hardcopy.
>
> The current Grundbuch is available on the net, if you can claim legal
> grounds, but you will not find historical data.
>
> To sum up: in Germany a reason for a generell census was not given
> because normal purposes like taxes or recruiting were fullfilled by data
> on hand.
>Data of authorities were not published. Today publication is
> forbidden by law.
>
> mfg
> bjk
>
edited September 2 and 3 2004
unlike as in other countries there are no general rules for the
inspection of archives. Upon filing a request inspection may be granted.
As a rule of thumb:
Firstly one has to claim scientific or legal interest.
Secondly, files pertaining to persons maybe inspected not earlier the 30
years after the death of the person (unless you are a close relative and
can claim that the files are own files, like the marriage record of the
parents, birth record of brothers, sisters).
For genealogical purposes:
genealogy is not recognized generally as science by german authorities,
so that only legal interrest=researching own relatives is accepted.
Scientific ground would be research on the relatives of the e.g. the
Duke of Wellington, Prince of Hanover in order to publish a biography.
Exception: there are many archives on history open for public
inspection. Either the Staatsarchiv of any german state, or the
Stadtarchiv of many german towns. Those are however interesting for
genealogical purposes only if researching the reasons for emigration etc
or when researching an ancestor who was a person in public of the town X.
mfg = Mit freundlichen Grüßen
bjk
Google Search: Bernd J. Kaup
Bernd J. Kaup - Rechtanwalt, Frankfurt, Gesetze, Beratung, Recht, Domain, Grabbing, Jurist, e-commerce, Handel, Hilfe, Internet, Arzneimittel, Kosmetik, Lebensmittel
Google Search: soc.genealogy.german
Google Groups: View Thread "German censuses and church records"
Subject: Re: German censuses and church records
Liv Nordset wrote:
> Does anyone know whether there are web-sites for German censuses and/or
> church records?
>
> Liv
>
>
just to make sure that we understand each other:
In Germany with very few exception there have never been published data
taken in a census other than plain figures.
It is true however that the data were acquired household by household.
But the crude data were condensed before publishing.
The base forms,
filled in by the people aided by numerous volunteers (I was one of those
in 1962 and 1969) were destroyed.
The destruction is contained in the
Census Act. The Federal Constitution Court resolved that the
identification part of the census forms (just adress and name) have to
be seperated before the processing of the data.
So today you can't even
tell, who gave false data as to members of the family, income, ownership
of houses, nationality etc. Experts mean that a modern german census has
a +/- 10 p.c tolerance.
Whereas as of about 1920 the crude data was contained in forms, those
data of earlier census' were contained in lists which were bound to
books.
Those books are when available published by interested people
privately at own cost (for example by the AKVZ). This private work is
depending on the authors/publishers also made available in the net (for
example by the AKVZ = googled - Arbeitskreis Volkszahl-Register Schleswig-Holstein e.V.).
The publishing in the net is, however, taking into account the material
on hand, very seldom.
A hardcopy alternative are the so called Ortssippenbücher, which contain
data on families of a certain town as completely as available. These are
also private works, which are mainly available from the author directly.
Wether there are such books you may find out by writing per snail mail
to the local archive.
To answer the second part of your question: with the exception of part
of the LDS microfilms, there are no german church records in the net.
To answer a question which ties in: there are no german official records
of personal data in the net (which is forbidden by law).
Sources of at least adresses are the Adressbücher, which were and are
published for a couple of bigger towns (in hardcopy) and the telephone
dictionaries. The latter are available (for current not previous years)
on the net.
To sum it up: there is no way to do a german genealogical research based
solely on data available via internet and usenet.
mfg
bjk
Google Search: german censuses
I asked Bernd
> >
> > now what about state censuses before 1871?
> >
> > are there similar books on German census as a whole?
>
> I personally only know of the work of the AKVZ pertaining to Schleswig
> Holstein. There are websites which contain relatively young data of the
> "deutsche Ostgebiete".
> But there is definitely no "book" (or the couple of books filling a
> whole library) on any census except for the figures published regularily
> by the Statistisches Bundesamt, formerly Reichsamt.
>
> One reason might be that in Germany starting in quite early times most
> of the data normally acquired in a census were already contained in
> official registers like the Grundbuch (register of land property,
> houses), Meldebuch (register of inhabitants), Wehr(fähigkeits)liste
> (register of recruits).
>
> The reason for a census like in the Holy Bible was the levying of taxes.
> Up to modern times taxes in money were paid by property owners only,
> whereas other people had to provide services to the community (e.g.
> Hand- und Spanndienste). The landowners were known from the register,
> the others were simply ordered by public announcement or by written
> order(some month ago a wartime (1813) example of such order was
> discussed here).
>
> examples of Denmark snipped
>
> >
> > so I would expect similar work to have been done in Prussia etc
>
> there were register of recruits, but they did not survive with very few
> exceptions you may find in a archive not on the net but in hardcopy.
>
> there is a register of land property, which shows ownership of any plot
> for at least 300 years back, but the register is sorted by plot, not by
> owner, so if you wish to find a person you may even for smaller villages
> have to dig through hundreds of files not on the net but in hardcopy.
>
> The current Grundbuch is available on the net, if you can claim legal
> grounds, but you will not find historical data.
>
> To sum up: in Germany a reason for a generell census was not given
> because normal purposes like taxes or recruiting were fullfilled by data
> on hand.
>Data of authorities were not published. Today publication is
> forbidden by law.
>
> mfg
> bjk
>
edited September 2 and 3 2004
unlike as in other countries there are no general rules for the
inspection of archives. Upon filing a request inspection may be granted.
As a rule of thumb:
Firstly one has to claim scientific or legal interest.
Secondly, files pertaining to persons maybe inspected not earlier the 30
years after the death of the person (unless you are a close relative and
can claim that the files are own files, like the marriage record of the
parents, birth record of brothers, sisters).
For genealogical purposes:
genealogy is not recognized generally as science by german authorities,
so that only legal interrest=researching own relatives is accepted.
Scientific ground would be research on the relatives of the e.g. the
Duke of Wellington, Prince of Hanover in order to publish a biography.
Exception: there are many archives on history open for public
inspection. Either the Staatsarchiv of any german state, or the
Stadtarchiv of many german towns. Those are however interesting for
genealogical purposes only if researching the reasons for emigration etc
or when researching an ancestor who was a person in public of the town X.
mfg = Mit freundlichen Grüßen
bjk
Google Search: Bernd J. Kaup
Bernd J. Kaup - Rechtanwalt, Frankfurt, Gesetze, Beratung, Recht, Domain, Grabbing, Jurist, e-commerce, Handel, Hilfe, Internet, Arzneimittel, Kosmetik, Lebensmittel
Geboren 1943 in Hannover, dort aufgewachsen, Abitur am humanistischen Kaiser Wilhelms Gymnasium (mit Griechisch, Latein) Studium der Rechte in Berlin, Freiburg und Heidelberg
(Wettbewerbsrecht bei Wolfgang Hefermehl),
Erstes Staatsexamen,
Referendarzeit,
Zweites Staatsexamen in Berlin.
Anschließend juristische Tätigkeit in der Rechtsabteilung, später als deren Leiter in internationalen Unternehmen der Markenartikelindustrie
Seit 1991 selbständiger Rechtsanwalt in Frankfurt a.M.
Meine nunmehr 25-jährige Erfahrung ermöglicht mir eine umfassende Beratung auf sehr vielen Gebieten des Wirtschaftsrechtes.
Das Beratungsangebot habe ich separat zusammengefaßt.
No mean expert THANKS
posted by Hugh W at 6:21 pm
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